Friday, May 18, 2012

DID JESUS CLAIM HE WAS GOD: JOHN 8:58


DID JESUS CLAIM HE WAS GOD: JOHN 8:58

DID JESUS CLAIM HE WAS GOD: JOHN 8:58
by Tiger Hossaam
Let us Analyse this Claim of Christians who say that Christ claimed Divinity as per John 8:58
“Before Abraham was I am”

This is another quotation which the Christians bring to show the divinity of Jesus. Its from John 8:58.
Lets analyze this verse.
 “Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” (John 8:58)
The reasons Christians give that Christ (pbuh) claimed divinity here are:
A. Jesus existed before Abraham.
B.“I am” is the name of God in the Bible (Exodus 3:14)
Lets analyze both the reasons.
A.
If Jesus (pbuh) existed before Abraham that does not make him God in anyway because even angels existed before Abraham. They existed before the world was created. Does it make them God? No ! Jesus (pbuh) was with God before Abraham (pbuh) , but in what form? Was he like a handsome young man moving around and then God reduced him to a small baby and put him in his mother’s womb? No No ! It means in the knowledge of God we all were there.
READING FURTHER:
Does “I am” makes Jesus p.b.u.h God?
John 8:58
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Greek text of John 8:58 reads: Iesous epo autos amen amen lego humin prin Abraam ginomai ego eimi
There are two arguments which are brought forth with regards to this verse:
1) Jesus said “I am”, which is a title for God in Exodus
2) Jesus had pre-existence thus he must be god.
1) Regarding the first argument, if saying “i am” makes a person God then many of us are gods, indeed even in Bible others have said “I am” yet Christians do not assert their divinity. In John 9:9 even a beggar said “I am” in a very similar context:
John 9:9 Some said, This is he: others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he].
Greek text of John 9:9 reads: allos lego hoti houtos esti de allos hoti esti homoios autos ekeinos lego hoti ego eimi
In KJV we see John 9:9 ending in “[he]“, however this is addition of translators, it is not found in the Greek Bible, hence “he” is in. In the original Greek text, in both verses (john 9:9 and john 8:58) the same Greek words are used for “I am” : ego eimi.
If “I am” is used to assert divinity to Jesus then similarly a beggar must qualify as being divine since he said the same thing. The context of John 9:9 and John 5:58 is very similar, in both instances individual’s identity is being questioned, even more so in John 9:9, and they both form a similar reply. Why should Jesus saying “I am” mean he is divine but beggar’s reply mean otherwise?
2) Other argument with regards to John 8:58 is pre-existence of Jesus. However, the concept of pre-existence of Prophets and other man exists in the Bible. For instance, Jeremiah and Solomon both had pre-existence in the Bible.
Jeremiah 1:4-5 states:
Jer 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Proverbs 8:22-30 speaks of Solomon’s pre-existence:
Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Pro 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Pro 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, [as] one brought up [with him]: and I was daily [his] delight, rejoicing always before him;
With respect to the above verses the Christians Must Consider Solomon to be God as well since he was made in the beginning as the verses shown above prove
In Islam, we share somewhat a similar belief. The Quran says
“When thy Lord drew forth from the Children of Adam – from their loins – their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): “Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?”- They said: “Yea! We do testify!” (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: “Of this we were never mindful”:(Quran 7:172)
B.
The Christians claim that “I am” is the name of God in the Bible in Exodus 3:14. The verse reads
“And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.” (Exodus 3:14)
Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, God ( I am.)”

We have no objection in agreeing that God was there before Abraham.
If Jesus was claiming divinity here. He should have at least remained consistent in the usage of words. In Exodus 3:14 the word for “I am” is “haw-yaw’ Where as the word in John 8:58 is “Ego Eimi”
This is sufficient to prove that in John 8:58 Jesus did not claim divinity.
Furthermore if we analyse  closely we understand that this claim of the Christian Missionaries is destroyed intellectually, read on
ego emi (i am), Does this means I am God ?. It’s very strange that Christian Believe that I am means I am God 
Let’s see John 8:28: Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Is this your God ? He doesnt do anything of his own self ? ‘Does “I am he” means I am God ????? And after it  says i do nothing of my own ? If God can’t do anything of his own, then who is this who can do something of his own ???
So  we get to know that the word ”I am he” doesnt mean anything EVEN CLOSE TO DIVINITY.
John 8:24: I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Anyway he answerd in John 8:25: Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
So they asked him who are you? If  ”i am he” means i am God, would they ask him who are you ? If he said i am God would they ask him who are you afterwards ?
The answer my dear friends is a CLEAR NO
LET’S COME TO  AN INTELLECTUAL CONCLUSION NOW
After Successfully proving that Jesus uttering  I AM does not mean he’s God. Let us refute the last semblance of arguement some Christians may have.
If Jesus is God just because he was before Abraham then even Satan was before Abraham, Will the Christians consider Satan as their God ? Even Angels were before Abraham, Will the Christians start worshipping Angels Now ? According to the Book of Hebrews even Melchisedek has no beginning and No End, he has no Father and no Mother (From the New International Version) Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life: Hebrews 7:3), Will the Christians believe that High Priest Melchisedek is God as well, will the Christians Worship him ?

Once again the answer is a clear NO
ARISE, AWAKE, FOR CHRIST SAID, SEEKETH THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE.
Peace be on you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkiP_Nf2gNo&feature=youtu.be Very important interpretation about John 8:58
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Also see: http://callingchristians.com/2012/06/05/christian-arguments-why-jesus-is-god/


REFUTING THE ALLEGED DIVINITY OF JESUS: WITH RESPECT TO JOHN 8:58 (I AM) - [By Tiger Hossam]



REFUTING THE ALLEGED DIVINITY OF JESUS: WITH RESPECT TO JOHN 8:58 (I AM)
- [By Tiger Hossam]

Lets analyze this verse.

“Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” (John 8:58)

The reasons Christians give that Christ (pbuh) claimed divinity here are:

A. Jesus existed before Abraham.
B.“I am” is the name of God in the Bible (Exodus 3:14)

Lets analyze both the reasons.

A.

If Jesus (pbuh) existed before Abraham that does not make him God in anyway because even angels existed before Abraham. They existed before the world was created. Does it make them God? No ! Jesus (pbuh) was with God before Abraham (pbuh) , but in what form? Was he like a handsome young man moving around and then God reduced him to a small baby and put him in his mother’s womb? No No ! It means in the knowledge of God we all were there. Jeremiah is said to have been made a Prophet before his birth. The Bible says

“Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” (Jeremiah 1:5) 

In Islam, we share somewhat a similar belief. The Quran says

“When thy Lord drew forth from the Children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?"- They said: "Yea! We do testify!" (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: "Of this we were never mindful":(Quran 7:172)

B.

The Christians claim that “I am” is the name of God in the Bible in Exodus 3:14. The verse reads 

“And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.” (Exodus 3:14) 

“Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, God ( I am.)” 

We have no objection in agreeing that God was there before Abraham. 

If Jesus was claiming divinity here. He should have at least remained consistent in the usage of words. In Exodus 3:14 the word for “I am” is “haw-yaw’ Where as the word in John 8:58 is “Ego Eimi” 

This is sufficient to prove that in John 8:58 Jesus did not claim divinity

READING FURTHER:


Does “I am” makes Jesus p.b.u.h God?
John 8:58
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Greek text of John 8:58 reads: Iesous epo autos amen amen lego humin prin Abraam ginomai ego eimi
There are two arguments which are brought forth with regards to this verse:
1) Jesus said “I am”, which is a title for God in Exodus
2) Jesus had pre-existence thus he must be god.

1)Regarding the first argument, if saying “i am” makes a person God then many of us are gods, indeed even in Bible others have said “I am” yet Christians do not assert their divinity. In John 9:9 even a beggar said “I am” in a very similar context:
Jhn 9:9 Some said, This is he: others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he].
Greek text of John 9:9 reads: allos lego hoti houtos esti de allos hoti esti homoios autos ekeinos lego hoti ego eimi
In KJV we see John 9:9 ending in “[he]“, however this is addition of translators, it is not found in the Greek Bible, hence “he” is in []. In the original Greek text, in both verses (john 9:9 and john 8:58) the same Greek words are used for “I am” : ego eimi.
If “I am” is used to assert divinity to Jesus then similarly a beggar must qualify as being divine since he said the same thing. The context of John 9:9 and John 5:58 is very similar, in both instances individual’s identity is being questioned, even more so in John 9:9, and they both form a similar reply. Why should Jesus saying “I am” mean he is divine but beggar’s reply mean otherwise?

2)Other argument with regards to John 8:58 is pre-existence of Jesus. However, the concept of pre-existence of Prophets and other man exists in the Bible. For instance, Jeremiah and Solomon both had pre-existence in the Bible.

Jeremiah 1:4-5 states:
Jer 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.


Proverbs 8:22-30 speaks of Solomon’s pre-existence:

Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Pro 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Pro 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, [as] one brought up [with him]: and I was daily [his] delight, rejoicing always before him;


Even, in the Quran, Surah al-A‘raaf, 7:172, Allah informed that man existed in the spiritual form before the creation of the physical world:

[007:172] And (remember) when thy Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their reins, their seed, and made them testify of themselves, (saying): Am I not your Lord ? They said: Yea, verily. We testify. (That was) lest ye should say at the Day of Resurrection: Lo! of this we were unaware; (Quran, Pickthall’s Translation, 7:172)
Biblically speaking even Jeremiah and Solomon had pre-existence, does this mean they are God? If not, then why should Jesus’ pre-existence mean he is God?

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Who is the God of the Bible?"

"ONE" - SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN LITERALLY
Mark 10:6-9 and John 14:20, 15:1-7, 17:11, 17:18-23, 17:26
There are many verses in the Bible that speak of Jesus and God as being "one". 
But does this necessarily mean that Jesus is God? If you read the six selections above then you will see that we cannot take the word "one" so literally. If we do, then we are God, as Jesus said, "...they also may be one in us" and "...they may be one, even as we are one." What the Bible means when it says that Jesus is "one" with God is that he is extremely close to god, "as if" they are one. John 17:18-23 tells how we normal human beings can attain this "oneness" (or "closeness") with God by being "sanctified through the truth." Aside from this, neither the word "trinity" appears anywhere in the Bible nor any explanation of such a thing.

"LORD" DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN "GOD"
Matthew 18:23-34, Luke 19:11-21, and John 20:26-29
Many of Jesus' disciples referred to Jesus as "Lord". Even Jesus himself said that he is their Lord. But does this mean that he is their God? If you read the three short stories above then you will realize that back in the Biblical time period most servants referred to their masters as "lord". This was a common practice because it showed honor and respect for a person of such high stature.

"LORD" - A Lofty Title
Even today in many countries around the world such as England, "lord" is used in referring to kings, princes, and others who deserve such a lofty title. The disciples and followers of Jesus viewed him as their earthy master and themselves as his servants. He was a man from God who brought them God's message of truth, justice, and peace. Who could be more deserving of the title "lord" than Jesus Christ? Besides, "lord" is defined by Webster in many curious ways. 

A few of them are as follows: 

A man of high rank in a feudal society. 
A king. 
A general masculine title of nobility or rank. 
A man of renowned power. 
A man who has mastery in a given activity or field.
Commenting on the word's history, Webster says that "lord" literally means 'guardian of the bread'". He continues, "Since such a position would be the dominant one in the household, lord came to denote a man of authority and rank in society at large." 

In The Holy Qur'an also uses "lord" in the same context (see 12:23 and 12:41-42). This was simply the language of the time.

The word "lord" does not render the person which it is being applied to as God. If this were the case, then many human beings in the Bible would have to be considered God

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